socom
New Member
Posts: 21
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Post by socom on Jul 24, 2008 10:55:07 GMT -5
4) It should be an opt-in (disabled by default) There should also be an Opt-out, which removes all information.
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jemni
Junior Member
The Strategist stops time while his fury eats my dreams
Posts: 61
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Post by jemni on Jul 24, 2008 11:10:22 GMT -5
4) It should be an opt-in (disabled by default) There should also be an Opt-out, which removes all information. It IS an opt-in feature disabled by default. You have to enter your own email info before it sends anything to the server to compare. That's the understanding I had from the devs on how this feature worked. RE: hashing for security. I agree. I have used MD5 hashing for security and this would be a perfect use for it. But I really like the guild idea. I for one, did not ever enter my email address or anything to join the community. I don't miss the community feature and would welcome a version that doesn't have it, at least until a secure solution can be developed. Use the KISS principle here, especially when you have 10 weeks of development. Keep It Simple Stupid. In hindsight and as a lesson for all new grads out there with an awesome game in development, most people would rather see a preliminary version of an awesome game that is more rock solid on a limited number of features rather that 20 features, none of which are completely solid. Plan those features for release 2 or 3 down the road. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I love the game and can't wait for the bugs to be worked out and a secure solution released on the App Store. I'm tired of building all these tools I can't use! I'm curious whether this security area is something that Apple checks for in the Apps that are submitted. This game was just trying to add an innocent feature but what if there are malicious designers that post a nifty "flashlight" app that without any claims about using contacts, secretly sends your contact list to some server in Libya. Does anyone know?
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wow
New Member
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Post by wow on Jul 24, 2008 11:34:55 GMT -5
A couple of points: It is perfectly obvious why Apple removed this application ASAP: It will (necessarily and correctly) become a complete PR nightmare for Apple's iPhone platform. The mainstream media in Europe WILL pick up on this. I realize that nobody in the U.S.A. cares, but in Europe, this is a HUGE deal, AND a CRIMINAL OFFENSE. We have very different privacy laws over here. This app was distributed internationally. 1. If I share people's personal data without their explicit approval, (...) Oh please, relax. Check what really happened und re-evaluate your advices. There is no huge deal and there will never be one. Two developers brought a great game to the iPhone-platform and implemented a - lets say - naiv community-option. This option was rarely used and no harm was done. No personal information is now in the hands of malicious russian mafia. It wasnt even stored. There was a fairly abstract danger of potential misuse. Sorry, there is no lawyer who will even raise a hand for this. You're right: Suing only makes sense in cases where quantifiable damages are due. (Of course, since this info was transmitted unencrypted and stored on a server that was probably set up with as much thought to security as the application was, there's absolutely no knowing what may have happened with the data.) However, you may note that breaking the law is a different matter. The state can press charges for theft, even if all you stole from the store was an egg, and you brought it back after ten minutes, so no harm was done. And a product that is distributed in a European store, (you know, paid for in Euros, including VAT and all such stuff, with European store terms of use that must be agreed to, to customers with a European billing address, etc.) is VERY MUCH forced to comply with European consumer and privacy protection laws in every way. Either way, I'm saying the bigger deal is that this kind of thing is possible on the iPhone AT ALL.
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Post by eliu87 on Jul 24, 2008 11:42:26 GMT -5
But guys, before you go shifting the blame onto Apple, just keep in mind that if Apple does get sued, they probably will lose, especially if the consumer privacy laws in Europe are as stringent as wow says. And losing a major court case, and having to deal with a PR nightmare that will follow, will definitely make them think twice about re-approving AF as an app, with or without the community feature...
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Post by Peligra on Jul 24, 2008 13:00:28 GMT -5
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Post by stocke2 on Jul 24, 2008 13:08:29 GMT -5
tom27, the unique id they said is to match your iphone or touch to your character data, and they said they make a copy of your contacts and store on your phone not the server(at least that is what i read in their posts.
Now as to weather they should even store a copy of your contacts on your phone, is it dangerous...no, but it is a waste of space to be sure.
and I do agree that they should do a one way hash of something to check your contacts against their server or should explicitly let you know what they are doing like with a pop up like the location stuff does.
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socom
New Member
Posts: 21
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Post by socom on Jul 24, 2008 13:21:36 GMT -5
**** I would like to clarify that we do not know why our application was removed from the store. We submitted an update hours before being delisted. Apple has not contacted us and their policy is to contact developers when an app is removed. It's possible there is a bug in their update system. We have been trying to figure out a way to contact someone at Apple who can give us more information. All media reports that we were removed due to "lousy security practices" are pure speculation. **** I would also like to add that as soon as we realized we were becoming popular we deleted all personal information from our servers in preparation for releasing a secure update. Even if you are currently playing the game and type in your info, we do not store it. In other words, the community feature has been disabled since Friday, July 18th. **** We would like to clarify that your contact list was not, is not, and never will be stored on our servers. The only data we stored is what you typed in on the community page so other people could find you. They updated the original post some time yesterday, and I did not notice it. A couple of key points are... and The first comment makes me feel better, the second comment confuses me, as I guess I don't understand how they would be able to do there search to see which of my friends are online if they didn't copy my contact list to there server to query (if they only have my email address, and my my friend is playing and they only have his email address, how would they know he is my friend if they didn't query my contact list?), this also begs the question, if they didn't, then why did they need to delete my personal data as stated in the first quote. So I would like some clarification on how this worked exactly. In any case, I trust that they have done as they have said and removed all of our personal data. Which is all I asked for. Hopefully they will be able to put a new and updated app online soon. then work on the community part after.
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Post by mrsmiley on Jul 24, 2008 13:55:04 GMT -5
*sigh*
I love the fact that all these people who register to post don't even read where you state you guys AREN'T storing their entire contact list. Come on people, show a slight bit of maturity and actually READ the post from the developers before believing everything you hear on some random news site. The only info that's stored is the info YOU submit to them in the community section.
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Post by eliu87 on Jul 24, 2008 14:19:59 GMT -5
*sigh* I love the fact that all these people who register to post don't even read where you state you guys AREN'T storing their entire contact list. Come on people, show a slight bit of maturity and actually READ the post from the developers before believing everything you hear on some random news site. The only info that's stored is the info YOU submit to them in the community section. Excellent Point! So in a way, AF didn't really violate your privacy...
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socom
New Member
Posts: 21
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Post by socom on Jul 24, 2008 14:40:58 GMT -5
*sigh* I love the fact that all these people who register to post don't even read where you state you guys AREN'T storing their entire contact list. Come on people, show a slight bit of maturity and actually READ the post from the developers before believing everything you hear on some random news site. The only info that's stored is the info YOU submit to them in the community section. Excellent Point! So in a way, AF didn't really violate your privacy... Then someone one please explain to me, if the only info they got, was the info I sent (phone and email, no contact information), how they could compare it to anything to find which of my friends were also playing the game?!
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brayve
New Member
cd cd.. cd.. /p
Posts: 8
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Post by brayve on Jul 24, 2008 14:48:51 GMT -5
Well this is upsetting.. "Hey apple, some guy just killed my friend through her camera location software from an app off of your store.. he tracked her down and slit her finger among other things.. WTF apple there is no disclaimer for how insanely unsecure the location camera software is (oh yea, theres a button that asks if it is ok) but I guess since you're making mills off of that you turn the other way.
Hey devs just make the main characters apples and change the name to Apple Feint, that'll put you in the clear.
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mav
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by mav on Jul 24, 2008 14:52:00 GMT -5
Danielle and Jason -- looks like you still have some explaining to do. (Btw, Daring Fireball (daringfireball.net) is now on the rampage.)
I don't mean this in a bad way -- but there's still lots of misunderstanding and confusion in the air. None of this affects me because I didn't use any community features. But as a fan of the game who is pretty sure you didn't mean any harm, you really might want to drop the coding for a little while and get to work on damage control.
I understand that you never stored any contact information from the user's full contact list when they opted into the community features. I can see Aurora Feint having to access/read/compare the e-mails and phone numbers that the player entered into the community feature, sure. I can see Aurora Feint assigning me an "identifier" and periodically saving my score and progress too (though I strongly recommend you put all of this up front for next update).
But how about this "reading" thing? Did or didn't the app "scan" through the user's full contact list when the community feature was enabled? What did the scan involve? Is it read-only or was some of the information "sent back" to the servers? Where does a user's full contact list (not the opt-in list in the community feature) come into play here?
I hate to say this, but at the current trajectory things could well get out of control unless you can take some time to very clearly explain to people (especially Gizmodo, toucharcade.com, daringfireball.net, etc.) what the community feature involved. Keep trying to talk to a human at Apple, too. I know you guys must be under a ton of stress right now, but unfortunately you've got your PR work cut out for you and it'll only get worse without some clear answers and corrections where needed.
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Kevin
New Member
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Post by Kevin on Jul 24, 2008 14:52:22 GMT -5
They said they don't store each user's contact list. They DO store the information you provide to opt-into the community feature. However, they do send information from your contact list in order to compare to the stored opt-in information submitted from other users. This way they can see if anyone from your contact list is a member of the AF community. Since they don't store the contact list, it sounds like a simply query of their database from the transmitted contact list info, and once complete the contact list info is deleted immediately.
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v1ado
New Member
Posts: 4
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Post by v1ado on Jul 24, 2008 14:53:23 GMT -5
socom, your bitching and moaning is getting to be borderline annoying. i don't know what gratification you are getting by repeatedly remarking that your privacy was infringed upon, and elaborating on how wrong that was. seriously, if you don't want to play the game, don't play the f*cking game, uninstall and go on your merry way! what is even more curious to me is what sort of contacts you have stored on your phone that you are so concerned about their rights being violated. you want to sue-go sue! just please don't feel obliged to share your indignation with the rest of the forum every 15 minutes; we get it.
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Post by mrsmiley on Jul 24, 2008 14:57:58 GMT -5
Excellent Point! So in a way, AF didn't really violate your privacy... Then someone one please explain to me, if the only info they got, was the info I sent (phone and email, no contact information), how they could compare it to anything to find which of my friends were also playing the game?! To my knowledge, it checks your address book for email addresses of friends, but it doesn't store any of this information on the server. It checks to see if an email address in your address book matches with an email address that YOUR FRIEND submitted to the server, that's it.
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